From <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Mon Oct 4 10:53:02 1993 Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <19889-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:52:51 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <07743-0@alfie.uib.no>; Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:52:25 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1134; Mon, 04 Oct 93 10:52:15 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 1133; Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:52:15 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4336; Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:52:13 +0100 Date: Mon, 04 Oct 93 10:51:17 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Round 13 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dmb@fig.cray.com, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-Id: <"alfie.uib..748:04.09.93.09.52.33"@uib.no> Status: OR Dear players, as the Judge of the Fantasy Rules Committee Round 13 I would like to start this round on Tuesday 12 October 1993, 15:00 GMT. My time zone is the same as Oerjan's. The last four days of this week I will be absent from my terminal. This message is send out mainly to see if everybody receives the mail. My address is: kunne@cernvm.cern.ch (Please Oerjan, could you send out the same message and relay complaints.) Current list of members (copied from my mailing list): alyxx@nadc.navy.mil,dmb@fig.cray.com,dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU,jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu,oerjan@nvg.unit.no,panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu,rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu,stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com,thomson@netcom.com,wesc@ichips.intel.com Friendly greetings, Ronald Kunne From yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au!nomic-request Tue Oct 12 10:34:59 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0omg7b-00000UC; Tue, 12 Oct 93 10:34 MET Received: by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (5.65a/1.34) id AA23718; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:33:25 +1000 Received: from cearn.cern.ch by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (5.65a/1.34) id AA23679; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:31:46 +1000 Message-Id: <9310120931.AA23679@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH by CEARN.cern.ch (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3499; Tue, 12 Oct 93 10:31:14 SET Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7017; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 10:32:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 10:30:44 SET From: KUNNE@crnvma.cern.ch Subject: FR: Round 13 starts today To: nomic@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dmb@fig.cray.com, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Errors-To: listman@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Reply-To: NOMIC Distribution List X-Sequence: 2342 Status: OR As the Judge, I hereby declare Fantasy Rules Committee Round 13 opened. This round starts on Tuesday 12 October 1993, 15:00 GMT. (I live in time zone GMT+1) The theme will be: Wordplay and Puns. Members, mail your rules to me, and I post them to all current members. To register as a member, if you are not already one, just mail me a note of intent. My address is: kunne@cernvm.cern.ch (Note the difference with my Nomic address) ==== Current list of members (copied from my mailing list): alyxx@nadc.navy.mil,dmb@fig.cray.com,dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU,jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu,oerjan@nvg.unit.no,panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu,rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu,stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com,thomson@netcom.com,wesc@ichips.intel.com ==== [Historical Note: The FR Committee began life as a registered committee of the Nomic World on-line game, but has survived the disbanding of Nomic World and continues as a fully independent game. The objective is to be the last player able (or willing) to post a legal Fantasy Rule. Previous rounds have included poetry, ascii-graphics, Scrabble-like restrictions on usable characters, logic puzzles and so on. --Storm] Regular Ordinances of the Fantasy Rule (FR) Committee 1. Ordinances. There shall be two types of ordinances: regular ordinances and fantasy rules. Fantasy rules shall have no effect on play except as provided for in the regular ordinances. 2. Membership. Any person may become a member of this committee by posting in the committee forum a statement of intent to join. A member may resign from the committee at any time. 3. Starting a Round. Whenever a round of play ends, a new round shall begin. During the first seven (7) days of a round, any member except the Judge may post a fantasy rule. After the seventh day, only those persons eligible to play may post fantasy rules. 4. Eligibility to Play. When a person (legally) posts a fantasy rule, e becomes eligible to play for the next seven (7) days unless that rule is declared invalid by the Judge. 5. End of Game. If at any time after the seventh day of a round, there is only one person eligible to play, then (a) all current fantasy rules are repealed (b) the round ends (c) the sole remaining player is declared winner of the just ended round and becomes Judge. 6. Judge. The Judge is responsible for interpreting the ordinances and determining the validity of fantasy rules. If a fantasy rule is inconsistent with itself, previously posted valid fantasy rules, or the regular ordinances, then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid and its author ineligible to play. If that author posted further rules after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid. 6b. Resignation. The Judge may resign if e appoints a successor who agrees to serve as Judge until the end of the round. [The new Judge becomes ineligible to play upon the old Judge's resignation.] 7. Style Points. For each fantasy rule posted, the Judge shall award X points, where -3<=X<=3. The Judge may use any criteria e sees fit for such awards. At the end of a Round the Player who has collected the most Style Points will be known and addressed as The Wizard in the next Round. 8. Restrictions on Judge's Power. The decision (or lack thereof) of the Judge may be changed if a proposal is made to do so and that proposal receives a two-thirds affirmative vote of the members voting on that proposal within three (3) days after the posting of that proposal. If the validity of a fantasy rule is not officially questioned (either by proposal or Judgement) within three (3) days after its posting, that rule shall be considered valid until the end of the round. 9. Amendment. The regular ordinances may be amended if a proposal is posted to do so and said proposal receives a two-thirds (2/3) affirmative vote of the members voting on that proposal within seven (7) days after the posting of that proposal. 10. Where to Do Things. All actions under these rules must be accomplished by a public posting in the official committee forum. The Judge may determine the location and nature of the official committee forum. [As of now, "Public posting" is posting by Ronald Kunne to the mailing list of players which he maintains. (We don't want to clutter up the general Nomic mailing list.)] ==== Friendly greetings, Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Tue Oct 12 17:22:08 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ommUB-00000UC; Tue, 12 Oct 93 17:22 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <10682-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:21:56 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <03582-0@alfie.uib.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:21:41 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1742; Tue, 12 Oct 93 16:21:07 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 1741; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:21:07 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8389; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:21:49 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 16:19:42 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 12:1,2 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..594:12.09.93.16.21.50"@uib.no> Status: OR Dave Bowen writes: > Please remove my name from the FR List. I've concluded that the FR > Committee just doesn't work as an e-mail game. Done. Too bad. ==== Here is the first Rule of this Round: FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. The Rule is clocked at the time of the start of the round, but it actually came earlier. I hope nobody sees this as a problem. I rate the Rule only 0, because I think that the submitter of a palindrome rule might have thought up a longer one. Also, the word "a" is a palindrome..... ==== And here is Rule 2: FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. Miracle! Another palindrome Rule before I succeeded in sending out number one. But does this player have "signature style"? I decide he does: turning a Rule into a palindrome as a whole has the style required. ==== Stein is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:02:10 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 1 point. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Tue Oct 12 19:18:49 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0omoJ6-00000WC; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:18 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <14365-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:18:30 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <06176-0@alfie.uib.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:18:21 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2981; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:18:00 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2980; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:18:00 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3205; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:18:40 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:18:10 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 12:3 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..178:12.09.93.18.18.23"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains some talk and a Rule submission. ==== Alyxx writes: >Stein deserves the maximum (3) points for obeying a rule he hadn't seen yet, >(but I have no real gripes.....just wanted to express admiration for a rule >which solved the "a" or "I" problem before I thought of it.) I agree with you now that one point for Stein is a little meager: in fact his palindrome is very nice: I only understood the "echo-part" after sending out my message. >Also, HOW could I have gotten my rule in before the official start of the > round? >I RESPONDED to your notice that the round had started BEFORE you sent it? NOT. >ah well....life's little quirks. Is this a timezone thing? Where ARE you >located, relative to GMT? (I know where I am....) Well, my note said that the Round would start at 15:00 GMT, that is 16:00 in my time zone. France has GMT+1, like Norway. ==== Oerjan writes: >You wrote: >> Here is the first Rule of this Round: >> >> FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID >> From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >> >> >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, > What about Otto? I noticed Otto, but I still think it's a rather meager palindrome. >> FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID >> From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no >> >> > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! >> > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) >Yes, but what does it _mean_? I find it completely unreadable. Well, in my opinion it is part of the Game that the Players figure out the interpretation. I think the interpretation is clear enough. If a future rule contradicts this rule I will explain why I think so. >There is no such thing as ordn. 'i'? I interprete this mathematically: any ordinance that fails, the Judge *ices* it. >If it tries to nullify 13:1, it must fail. >If it tries to forbid 'i's? I'll suppose that for now. No comment. :-) ==== FANTASY RULE 12:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is VALID and I rate it at 2. Checklist: it contains the trivial palindrome; it doesn't contradict 12:2; the signature style for this player is noted. But is it consistent with itself? Only if it contains itself "a blanket statement" and "one complete untruth". I think it does, but am not yet decided about which statements qualify. I rate it at 2 points, because I see paradoxes coming up... ==== Stein is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:02:10 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 1 point. All other players have 0 points. From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Tue Oct 12 19:21:30 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0omoLh-00000WC; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:21 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <14458-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:21:18 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <06237-0@alfie.uib.no>; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:20:53 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3003; Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:20:32 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3002; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:20:31 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3229; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:21:09 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:20:41 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..241:12.09.93.18.21.07"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== Stein is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:02:10 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 1 point. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From nvg.unit.no!oerjan Tue Oct 12 20:00:23 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: Received: from flode.nvg.unit.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0omoxJ-00000WC; Tue, 12 Oct 93 20:00 MET Received: by flode.nvg.unit.no (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA05729; Tue, 12 Oct 1993 20:00:14 +0100 From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <9310121900.AA05729@flode.nvg.unit.no> Subject: FR: Re: Rule 12:3 To: kunne@crnvma.cern.ch (Ronald Kunne) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 20:00:13 +0100 (MET) Cc: oerjan@nvg.unit.no (Oerjan Johansen) In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..178:12.09.93.18.18.23"@uib.no> from "KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet" at Oct 12, 93 07:18:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1325 Status: OR > Oerjan writes: > FANTASY RULE 12:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID > From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no > >To make a future rule, you must take: ^^^^^^ > > > >A blanket statement > >3 cups of letters > >Assorted grammar > >1 complete untruth > > > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, > >some talent and maybe chocolate. > >Send the product to our judge for approval; > >Serve hot. > --- > The rule is VALID and I rate it at 2. > Checklist: it contains the trivial palindrome; it doesn't contradict > 12:2; the signature style for this player is noted. > But is it consistent with itself? Sure it is. > Only if it contains itself "a blanket statement" and "one complete > untruth". I think it does, but am not yet decided about which > statements qualify. It does not have to, as it only imposes a restriction on _future_ rules. It does not have to obey those restrictions itself. You weren't here when we had the "hypocrisy" rule, which demanded that each and every rule broke any restrictions it made on other rules? Clearly, my rule is consistent with itself, and need not obey these restrictions. > I rate it at 2 points, because I see paradoxes coming up... There shouldn't be any. It was certainly not intended to make any paradoxes. Not that I mind getting 2 points :-) Greetings, Oerjan. From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Wed Oct 13 10:26:24 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0on2TP-00000WC; Wed, 13 Oct 93 10:26 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <11094-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:26:18 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <20271-0@alfie.uib.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:25:50 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6762; Wed, 13 Oct 93 10:25:28 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6761; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:25:27 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 2433; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:26:05 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 10:24:01 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Talk about inconsistencies To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..273:13.09.93.09.25.53"@uib.no> Status: OR Oerjan writes (Tuesday 12, about 20:00) > Oerjan writes: > FANTASY RULE 12:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID > From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no > >To make a future rule, you must take: ^^^^^^ > > > >A blanket statement > >3 cups of letters > >Assorted grammar > >1 complete untruth > > > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, > >some talent and maybe chocolate. > >Send the product to our judge for approval; >> >Serve hot. >> --- >> The rule is VALID and I rate it at 2. >> Checklist: it contains the trivial palindrome; it doesn't contradict >> 12:2; the signature style for this player is noted. >> But is it consistent with itself? > >Sure it is. > >> Only if it contains itself "a blanket statement" and "one complete >> untruth". I think it does, but am not yet decided about which >> statements qualify. > >It does not have to, as it only imposes a restriction on _future_ rules. >It does not have to obey those restrictions itself. >You weren't here when we had the "hypocrisy" rule, which demanded that >each and every rule broke any restrictions it made on other rules? >Clearly, my rule is consistent with itself, and need not obey these >restrictions. > >> I rate it at 2 points, because I see paradoxes coming up... > >There shouldn't be any. It was certainly not intended to make any >paradoxes. Not that I mind getting 2 points :-) > >Greetings, >Oerjan. Hmmm. When I started to play (in Round 12, years ago), on reading Regular Ordinance 6: >6. Judge. The Judge is responsible for interpreting the ordinances and > determining the validity of fantasy rules. If a fantasy rule is > inconsistent with itself, previously posted valid fantasy rules, or ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > the regular ordinances, then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid > and its author ineligible to play. If that author posted further rules > after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid. I understood the phrase "inconsistent with itself" not only as: "it shouldn't have internal paradoxes", but also as "it should obey itself". The argument is that otherwise one could impose something extremely difficult on future rules, without going through that effort oneself. Example: Future rules should be in the form of a Shakespearian sonnet. This rule imposes a lot of work on other players, but not on its author. And this, I think, is not fair. Of course, your hypocrisy example would not have been accepted by this interpretation. Before I throw out any Rule submissions using my interpretation, I would like to hear opinions of other Players, please? Suppose *my* interpretation of Reg.Ord. 6 makes sense (input, please?), then "Future Rules" is only a phrase that select a set of Rules, distinct from "Past Rules" or "All Rules". But it doesn't exclude your Rule from the fact that it should obey itself. Therefore it has itself to contain "a blanket statement" and "1 complete untruth". And it does: for instance "assorted grammar" and "serve hot" would qualify, respectively. But so would other phrases, and it is this undecided issue, which might produce paradox-like problems (for the Judge, mainly). Assume: Rule 13:101 => Future Rules should not contain the 24th letter of the English alphabet. Future Rules should not contain the 26th letter of the English alphabet. This Rule might contain 0, 1 or 2 untruth. Comes: Rule 13:102 => This Rule is invalid! Zzzzz! Now we now that the second part of 101 is not true. (And why is 102 VALID?) Comes: Rule 13:103 => This Rule is invalid! Exactly! Aha! Now we now that the first part of 101 is not true. It therefore becomes INVALID (in my view) because it has now two untrue statements. Luckily the previous Judge introduced "UNDECIDED" into game custom :-) Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Wed Oct 13 13:36:41 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0on5RX-00000eC; Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:36 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <17220-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:36:35 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <23494-0@alfie.uib.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:36:20 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7588; Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:35:53 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7587; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:35:52 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 9152; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:36:31 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:35:25 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 13:4 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..504:13.09.93.12.36.27"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains some discussion and Rule 13:4 ==== Richard Kennaway writes: >Please remove me from the FR mailing list. It's been fun, but I no >longer have the time. Ok, done. But we need new blood.... ==== Stein writes: (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:56:10) >> Oerjan writes (Tuesday 12, about 20:00) >> > Oerjan writes: >> >It does not have to, as it only imposes a restriction on _future_ rules. >> >It does not have to obey those restrictions itself. > >I agree with this > >You write: >> Hmmm. >> When I started to play (in Round 12, years ago), on reading Regular >> Ordinance 6: >> >6. Judge. The Judge is responsible for interpreting the ordinances and >> > determining the validity of fantasy rules. If a fantasy rule is >> > inconsistent with itself, previously posted valid fantasy rules, or >> [...] >> I understood the phrase "inconsistent with itself" not only as: >> "it shouldn't have internal paradoxes", but also as "it should obey itself". > >Well, I don't think so. If it (or other rules) say it must obey itself >then it must, but in this case this is not required. > >> The argument is that otherwise one could impose something extremely >> difficult on future rules, without going through that effort oneself. >> Example: Future rules should be in the form of a Shakespearian sonnet. >> This rule imposes a lot of work on other players, but not on its author. >> And this, I think, is not fair. > >Fairness has nothing to do with it. If people want to post 'unfair' >rules there are numerous ways to do so. But this is a game of both >competition *and* cooperation, i.e. you will often want to make things >difficult for other players (yourself included, often), but there is >never any fun in killing the game off by making it impossible to post >further rules. > >Of course, the Reg. Ords. say that "The judge is responsible for >interpreting the ordinances and determining the validity of fantasy rules", >so you may in fact do as you wish, but we may then overturn your >judgement by vote. > I see the validity of your reasoning, but I don't agree. However, although I am allowed to do so, I don't want to interpret the Rules in such a way, that most players don't agree with me. After all, I am new... Your's is the only reaction sofar: I therefore will come back on the question, when I feel forced to invalidate a Rule because it doesn't obey itself. >> But so would other phrases, and it is this undecided issue, which might >> produce paradox-like problems (for the Judge, mainly). >> >> [Example deleted] >> >> Luckily the previous Judge introduced "UNDECIDED" into game custom :-) > >Again, you're the judge, you do as you wish, but I wouldn't interpret >Rule 13:3 to mean that later rules are free to violate one of the requirements >set in a previous rule (and that the previous rule is in fact not valid >until some rule has done so), or that any rule is free to have one inconsistenc >(to be written off as the untruth). > >I think it is possible to introduce breakable/mutable rules, if a rule >clearly states that all following rules shall have these properties, >but in my opinion Rule 13:3 does not do so. There are endless possibilities >for untruths, that does not have to violate other rules (eg. The moon is >a green cheese, politicians tell the truth), and be sure that members >will find creative untruths. I agree. Problems would arise, only if a Rule could have two or more Untruth (Not inconsistencies...), one of which refers to the contents of other Rules. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. Stein gives some explanation: >Comments: 'Are' is a common norwegian first name, 'Not' is also > a norwegian word, which may well be appropriate for a family > name (I don't know anybody who actually is named Not, but I > wouldn't be surprised to see it) > > Palindrome (by phrase - word pal) - my signature > Blanket statement in the middle (or alternatively the title - it covers > the subject) > Untruth clearly marked. I am glad you found a way of solving your signature problem. No contradictions with 13:2 and 13:3 either, as you (mercifully?) point out yourself. ==== Stein is eligible until Wed, 20 Oct 1993 11:48:58 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 2 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Wed Oct 13 13:37:34 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0on5SO-00000eC; Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:37 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <17258-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:37:24 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <23519-0@alfie.uib.no>; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:37:07 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7592; Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:36:44 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7591; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:36:44 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 9190; Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:37:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 13:36:48 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..521:13.09.93.12.37.14"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== Stein is eligible until Wed, 20 Oct 1993 11:48:58 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 2 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Thu Oct 14 09:47:49 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onOLc-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 09:47 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <24698-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:47:44 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <15128-0@alfie.uib.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:47:37 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4533; Thu, 14 Oct 93 09:47:13 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4532; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:47:13 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 9574; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:45:20 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 09:42:59 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Discussion To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..130:14.09.93.08.47.39"@uib.no> Status: OR This messages contains only discussion, but including some ideas for Regular Ordinance changes. But no new Fantasy Rules, too bad. ==== "M I C; K E Y: WHY? BECAUSE WE LIKE YOU; M O U S E" continues the Rule 6 discussion: > [Content of earlier messages deleted] >About hypocrisy: The "inconsisten with itself" line in reg. rule 6 is >a new thing. Whther rules had to obey themselves or notwas originally >not in the regualr ordinances. "Consistent" is a compromise: rules such >as oerjan's can declare "all other rules are bound by a restriction which >this rule is not bound by" and be "consistent" with themselves. This is >less a restriction than "all rules must obey all restrictions they impose" >which was not the intent of the phrase in rule 6. Well, this seems to settle it then: I judge that Reg. Ord. 6 doesn't require Fantasy Rules to obey themselves (unless stated of course). Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for the confusion. > I think the legendary "hypocrisy round" had a rule before the one >declaring that all rules had to violate their own restrictions which >stated that no rule could make it impossible to post another valid rule ... >it may have even been one of the rounds in which including an example of >a rule which could be made with the restriction that the rule made in place >was a required part of a valid rule. (I'm not toatally sure, and I don't >have log files to look at.) If somebody has stored away in some dusty data cellar files of previous Rounds, I would appreciate a copy. >After last game's balderdash with times, and message-ID codes I feel like >drafting a new regular ordinance disallowing reference to the >implementation of e-mail in fnatasy rules --- it seems like that is the >line between the game and the meta-game, the point at which people start >playing the board instead of the game. While drumming on the table until >the stones are no longer in the positions where they were played is a >justifiable behavior in certain circumstances, one has, in that example, >ceased to play Go and started a more subtle form of interpersonal >manipulation -- perhaps one is frustrated with ones losing position and >doesn't know how to gracefully bow out, the movie is about to come on HBO, >and the steaks are about to burn -- whatever. I am in favour of this, I think... Or maybe we should have a Rule on plagiate. Something like: If a Player uses an idea in a Rule submission that, in the opinion of the Judge, plagiates or otherwise copies a Rule out of a *previous* Round, the Judge may proposes to invalidate this Rule. Such a proposal needs only a simple majority to pass. My argument to phrase it like this goes: if a Player has a good idea (even meta-game like) he/she should be allowed to use it, but only once. > > > > -/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\**/**\- > > David L. Nicol > Internet: DNICOL@CSTP.UMKC.EDU > University of Missouri - Kansas City > Computer Science Telecommunications Program > >"What do I know about windows? Stick a paper clip through a hole punched in > a glazing point and call it a diamond earring." Awaiting other Rules, Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Thu Oct 14 17:47:03 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onVpL-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <12873-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:36 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <24214-0@alfie.uib.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:28 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7730; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:04 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7729; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:04 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8452; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:36 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 13:5 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..216:14.09.93.16.46.30"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains a new Fantasy Rule. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. I have nothing to add to your explanation: >Untruth should be clear. The paranthesised comment should be general >enough for a blanket statement. And if you assume that "Go, torero" is >a classic B&W erotic movie, this sentence actually makes some sense. >(Why a priest would direct blue movies beats me, though). ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 3 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Thu Oct 14 17:48:09 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onVqS-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:48 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <12923-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:48 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <24232-0@alfie.uib.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:16 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7741; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:52 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7740; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:51 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8483; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:27 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:59 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..238:14.09.93.16.47.27"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 3 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Thu Oct 14 17:48:09 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onVqS-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:48 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <12923-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:48 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <24232-0@alfie.uib.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:16 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7741; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:52 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7740; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:46:51 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8483; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:47:27 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:46:59 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..238:14.09.93.16.47.27"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Oerjan has 2 points. Stein has 3 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Thu Oct 14 17:50:27 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onVsf-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:50 MET Resent-Message-Id: Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <12997-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:50:22 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <24292-0@alfie.uib.no>; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:50:09 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7762; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:49:45 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7760; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:49:44 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8532; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:49:31 +0100 Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:47:50 SET Resent-From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Resent-To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (NJE origin MAILER@NOBERGEN) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6974; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:15:19 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN (NJE origin SMTP@NOBERGEN) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7173; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:07:53 +0100 Received: from aun.uninett.no by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 14 Oct 93 17:07:51 EMT X400-Received: by mta aun.uninett.no in /PRMD=uninett/ADMD= /C=no/; Relayed; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:06:08 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=tele/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/; Relayed; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:46:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:46:48 +0100 X400-Originator: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no X400-Recipients: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet X400-MTS-Identifier: [/PRMD=tele/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/;884 93/10/14 11:46] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no Message-ID: <"884 93/10/14 11:46*/G=Stein/S=Kulseth/O=TF/PRMD=tele/ADMD=TELEMAX/C=NO/"@MHS> To: KUNNE%cernvm.bitnet@livid.uib.no In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..130:14.09.93.08.47.39"@uib.no> Subject: FR: Discussion Status: OR Oops, I noticed there was another message from Stein. I have no time to include my comments now, but relay it like it is. Ronald ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >After last game's balderdash with times, and message-ID codes I feel like > >drafting a new regular ordinance disallowing reference to the > >implementation of e-mail in fnatasy rules --- it seems like that is the > >line between the game and the meta-game, the point at which people start > >playing the board instead of the game. [...] > > I am in favour of this, I think... I think I am not. Again, this is on the grounds that there will exist endless possibilities for 'unfair' meta-game play, eg. something like "Authors with 'r' in their name cannot post rules", "Rules must be written in Norwegian" etc. IMHO, trying to disallow all these, would turn the Reg. Ords into a quagmire of legal jabberwocky. Furthermore I don't think it is necessary to outlaw such moves. Fi., I found last round entertaining, though I wouldn't want to see it repeated, but then I don't think anyone else will either. So, let's not stifle creativity, but rather, put our trust in an unspoken mutual agreement that the object of the game is to have fun. > Or maybe we should have a Rule on plagiate. Something like: > > If a Player uses an idea in a Rule submission that, in the opinion of > the Judge, plagiates or otherwise copies a Rule out of a *previous* > Round, the Judge may proposes to invalidate this Rule. > Such a proposal needs only a simple majority to pass. > > My argument to phrase it like this goes: > if a Player has a good idea (even meta-game like) he/she should be > allowed to use it, but only once. The above reasoning holds for this, too. In addition, this rule would be very hard to use in judgements. When are two ideas similar enough to be regarded as the same? When are an idea general enough that it must be allowed to be used repeatedly? OK. enough of that, but on the subject of Reg Ords, I have a few topics for discussion, too: 1. The last rounds have all allowed anyone to post during the first free week of eligibility, even after posting invalid rules. I think this is a good idea, and think most of us agree on this. However, this practice is not really in accordance with the Reg Ords which say (RO #6): "[... if inconsistent ...] then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid and its author ineligible to play. If that author posted further rules after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid." I.e. after an invalid rule, all subsequent rules shall be judged invalid. I propose the following change in the above: " ... then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid, and its author ineligible to play outside the first seven days of the round. If an author who is thus judged ineligible to play posted further rules after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid." Maybe someone can word this better? Maybe we don't need the last sentence, after all, ineligible *is* ineligible? 2. Sometimes the judge makes obvious errors, and still by the Reg Ords. it will take three days to change a faulty judgement, even when the judge and everybody agrees to the change. I propose that the judge should be allowed to temporarily suspend/reinstall rules during the voting period. Example: I, as judge, judges ord. X VALID, however I am then informed of a clear inconsistency, and a change is proposed. Then may I suspend the rule for the voting period, and if the voting passes 2/3 it will be truly INVALID. Is this a good idea? -- stein.kulseth@tf.tele.no [X.400] stein.kulseth@nta.no [internet] 'When murders are committed by mathematics, they can be solved by mathematics. Most of them aren't, and this one wasn't' - Nick Charles (Dashiell Hammett's "The Thin Man") From nvg.unit.no!oerjan Thu Oct 14 18:03:37 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: Received: from tigern.nvg.unit.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onW5K-00000LC; Thu, 14 Oct 93 18:03 MET Received: by tigern.nvg.unit.no (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA09789; Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:03:18 +0100 From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <9310141703.AA09789@tigern.nvg.unit.no> Subject: FR: Re: Discussion To: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:03:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: oerjan@nvg.unit.no (Oerjan Johansen) In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..130:14.09.93.08.47.39"@uib.no> from "KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet" at Oct 14, 93 09:42:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4290 Status: OR Ronald Kunne writes and distributes: > Well, this seems to settle it then: I judge that Reg. Ord. 6 doesn't > require Fantasy Rules to obey themselves (unless stated of course). > Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for the confusion. I'm glad to hear that! :-) I was considering proposing a clarification of the Regular rules (adding the word "logically" in front of the word "inconsistent") but now I don't think that's necessary. > > I think the legendary "hypocrisy round" had a rule before the one > >declaring that all rules had to violate their own restrictions which > >stated that no rule could make it impossible to post another valid rule ... > >it may have even been one of the rounds in which including an example of > >a rule which could be made with the restriction that the rule made in place > >was a required part of a valid rule. (I'm not toatally sure, and I don't > >have log files to look at.) > > If somebody has stored away in some dusty data cellar files of > previous Rounds, I would appreciate a copy. I've only saved round 7 (which I judged,) 11 and 12.. Sorry. I was away during most of summer here. > >After last game's balderdash with times, and message-ID codes I feel like > >drafting a new regular ordinance disallowing reference to the > >implementation of e-mail in fnatasy rules --- it seems like that is the > >line between the game and the meta-game, the point at which people start > >playing the board instead of the game. While drumming on the table until > >the stones are no longer in the positions where they were played is a > >justifiable behavior in certain circumstances, one has, in that example, > >ceased to play Go and started a more subtle form of interpersonal > >manipulation -- perhaps one is frustrated with ones losing position and > >doesn't know how to gracefully bow out, the movie is about to come on HBO, > >and the steaks are about to burn -- whatever. > > I am in favour of this, I think... Well, message-IDs was a rather horrible idea, I'll agree. But really, all rules have their time and place. An idea if we must have this: A set of rules and restrictions like the above, but with the addition that _one_ of them could be broken each round.. > Or maybe we should have a Rule on plagiate. Something like: > > If a Player uses an idea in a Rule submission that, in the opinion of > the Judge, plagiates or otherwise copies a Rule out of a *previous* > Round, the Judge may proposes to invalidate this Rule. > Such a proposal needs only a simple majority to pass. > > My argument to phrase it like this goes: > if a Player has a good idea (even meta-game like) he/she should be > allowed to use it, but only once. I would strongly oppose this. I think that any penalties due to style, obnoxiousness or boringness should be through the awarding of negative style points - that is in my view the most important reason to have them. Besides, who is going to keep track of previous rounds? (Well, someone ought to, perhaps; I'm going to save them from now on.) Also, because the game changes so much from round to round, posting _the exact same rule_ might have very different effects in different cases. If a plagiate rule is made, I urge that the judge not only considers whether a rule copies an old rule, but also whether it interacts with other rules in new and interesting ways. Also, some rules (like the hypocrisy rule, or its opponent, the obey-what-thou-demands rule) might be sufficiently powerful or interesting that they could be used several times. If a rule allows for a lot of different types of rounds, it should be possible to use it in new and interesting ways. In short, I don't think that there should be arbitrary restrictions on style, but if you find a rule truly bad or uninteresting, give it -3 style points. > Awaiting other Rules, > Ronald I'll wait for a while. The previous round had the rules coming in quite fast, but that was largely due to some obnoxious 24 hour restrictions. Generally, 1 or 2 rules per week per player is more like standard.(YMMV) I would like more people to participate, though. Many rules are fun, but not quite so much when there's only 1 or 2 players making them. (I'ld like to see what other people can come with as signature styles. :-) Greetings, Oerjan. From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Fri Oct 15 10:28:37 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onlSe-00000NC; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:28 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <10683-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:28:32 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <10636-0@alfie.uib.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:28:09 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3042; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:27:43 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3040; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:27:42 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0137; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:28:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:26:57 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 13:6 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..639:15.09.93.09.28.11"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains Fantasy Rule 13:6, a relayed message and comments. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:6 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:32:10) ==> INVALID From: "Wes Contreras" >For lo and behold, if he breaketh the law, then the law he shall not have >broken, for the law shall apply to all for whom the law applies. And lo, >he whose law breaketh the law, yea, even it's own law, shall not make the >law, for only a law which doth not break the law shall become the law, though >the law to come shall not be a part of the law. And the law shall be worth >no more than three score. --- This Rule is INVALID and I rate it -1. This Rule obeys to all previous Rules, but I think it is inconsistent with itself. It says: >[...], for only a law which doth not break the law shall become the law This I interpret as: a Rule should obey itself. It also says: >And the law shall be worth no more than three score. Note that "three score" means 3 times 20 equals 60. According to 13:1: >The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? This means, that the last sentence of 13:6 must be interpreted as: "No Rule shall be worth more than sixty" or by 13:1 "No Rule shall contain more than 60 words" However, 13:6 contains 86 words....So it does not obey itself and is therefore inconsistent with itself. You think this is farfetched? Well, actually Wes thinks so himself. He writes: > >As far as the effects of this rule, well, it says that all rules (laws) have >to follow themselves and all previous rules, but not future rules. The main >part is that every rule has to follow itself. > >Also, it says that all rules must be "worth no more than three score", which >is interpreted (according to the signature style) as worth 60 or less. Now, >remember in rule 13:1, it states quite explicitly that the worth of a rule is >measured in words, therefore no rule may contain more than 60 words. As I like the style, I gave it only 1 minus point. ==== Wes raises something else: >The palindrome "a" does not begin/end with "i", so it should follow >Rule 13:2. (Is this the right interpretation?) I interpret 13:2 as: No Rule shall contain the palindrome 'i' or 'I'. ==== I come back to Stein's remarks: > >The above reasoning [Dave's and my proposals might turn this game >into a legal quagmire] holds for this, too. In addition, >[a plagiate Rule] >would be very hard to use in judgements. When are two ideas similar >enough to be regarded as the same? When are an idea general enough >that it must be allowed to be used repeatedly? Easy: all in the opinion of the Judge, who then proposes to invalidate a Rule for plagiate. > >OK. enough of that, but on the subject of Reg Ords, I have a few topics >for discussion, too: > >1. The last rounds have all allowed anyone to post during the first free > week of eligibility, even after posting invalid rules. I think this > is a good idea, and think most of us agree on this. However, this > practice is not really in accordance with the Reg Ords which say (RO #6): > > "[... if inconsistent ...] then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid > and its author ineligible to play. If that author posted further rules > after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid." > > I.e. after an invalid rule, all subsequent rules shall be judged invalid. > I propose the following change in the above: > " ... then the Judge shall declare that rule invalid, and its author > ineligible to play outside the first seven days of the round. If an > author who is thus judged ineligible to play posted further rules > after the one judged invalid, those rules shall also be judged invalid." > > Maybe someone can word this better? Maybe we don't need the last sentence, > after all, ineligible *is* ineligible? I don't think this change is necessary. Rule 3 takes precedence over Rule 6, in my opinion, following Nomic habits. And Rule 3 permits each Player to submit Rules in the first seven days, even if one of them turns out to be INVALID. > >2. Sometimes the judge makes obvious errors, and still by the Reg Ords. > it will take three days to change a faulty judgement, even when > the judge and everybody agrees to the change. I propose that the judge > should be allowed to temporarily suspend/reinstall rules during the > voting period. > Example: I, as judge, judges ord. X VALID, however I am then > informed of a clear inconsistency, and a change is proposed. Then may > I suspend the rule for the voting period, and if the voting passes 2/3 > it will be truly INVALID. > > Is this a good idea? > I don't agree: it seems more fun that Player's still have to obey a Rule in this three day period although it becomes INVALID afterwards. Last Round we had a similar situation with the "metal requiring Rule", which Oerjan declared INVALID and I proposed to change. ==== >From Oerjan: >Ronald Kunne writes and distributes: >> Well, this seems to settle it then: I judge that Reg. Ord. 6 doesn't >> require Fantasy Rules to obey themselves (unless stated of course). >> Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for the confusion. > >I'm glad to hear that! :-) I was considering proposing a clarification >of the Regular rules (adding the word "logically" in front of the word >"inconsistent") but now I don't think that's necessary. > >> > I think the legendary "hypocrisy round" had a rule before the one >> >declaring that all rules had to violate their own restrictions which >> >stated that no rule could make it impossible to post another valid rule ... >> >it may have even been one of the rounds in which including an example of >> >a rule which could be made with the restriction that the rule made in place >> >was a required part of a valid rule. (I'm not toatally sure, and I don't >> >have log files to look at.) >> >> If somebody has stored away in some dusty data cellar files of >> previous Rounds, I would appreciate a copy. > >I've only saved round 7 (which I judged,) 11 and 12.. Sorry. >I was away during most of summer here. Out of curiosity, please send me Round 7 and 11. > >> >After last game's balderdash with times, and message-ID codes I feel like >> >drafting a new regular ordinance disallowing reference to the >> >implementation of e-mail in fnatasy rules --- it seems like that is the >> >line between the game and the meta-game, the point at which people start >> >playing the board instead of the game. While drumming on the table until >> >the stones are no longer in the positions where they were played is a >> >justifiable behavior in certain circumstances, one has, in that example, >> >ceased to play Go and started a more subtle form of interpersonal >> >manipulation -- perhaps one is frustrated with ones losing position and >> >doesn't know how to gracefully bow out, the movie is about to come on HBO, >> >and the steaks are about to burn -- whatever. >> >> I am in favour of this, I think... > >Well, message-IDs was a rather horrible idea, I'll agree. But really, >all rules have their time and place. An idea if we must have this: >A set of rules and restrictions like the above, but with the addition >that _one_ of them could be broken each round.. A bit artificial, in my opinion. > >> Or maybe we should have a Rule on plagiate. Something like: >> >> If a Player uses an idea in a Rule submission that, in the opinion of >> the Judge, plagiates or otherwise copies a Rule out of a *previous* >> Round, the Judge may proposes to invalidate this Rule. >> Such a proposal needs only a simple majority to pass. >> >> My argument to phrase it like this goes: >> if a Player has a good idea (even meta-game like) he/she should be >> allowed to use it, but only once. > >I would strongly oppose this. I think that any penalties due to style, >obnoxiousness or boringness should be through the awarding of negative >style points - that is in my view the most important reason to have >them. Besides, who is going to keep track of previous rounds? (Well, >someone ought to, perhaps; I'm going to save them from now on.) >Also, because the game changes so much from round to round, posting _the >exact same rule_ might have very different effects in different cases. >If a plagiate rule is made, I urge that the judge not only considers >whether a rule copies an old rule, but also whether it interacts with >other rules in new and interesting ways. >Also, some rules (like the hypocrisy rule, or its opponent, the >obey-what-thou-demands rule) might be sufficiently powerful or >interesting that they could be used several times. If a rule allows for >a lot of different types of rounds, it should be possible to use it in >new and interesting ways. >In short, I don't think that there should be arbitrary restrictions on >style, but if you find a rule truly bad or uninteresting, give it -3 >style points. I will, I will...(big wolfish grin) > >> Awaiting other Rules, >> Ronald > >I'll wait for a while. The previous round had the rules coming in quite >fast, but that was largely due to some obnoxious 24 hour restrictions. >Generally, 1 or 2 rules per week per player is more like standard.(YMMV) >I would like more people to participate, though. Many rules are fun, but >not quite so much when there's only 1 or 2 players making them. (I'ld >like to see what other people can come with as signature styles. :-) > >Greetings, >Oerjan. > ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 2 points. Was has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Fri Oct 15 10:30:43 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onlUf-00000NC; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:30 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <10709-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:29:13 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <10649-0@alfie.uib.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:28:58 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3048; Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:28:33 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3046; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:28:33 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0169; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:29:19 +0100 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 10:29:03 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..651:15.09.93.09.29.00"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:6 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:32:10) ==> INVALID From: "Wes Contreras" >For lo and behold, if he breaketh the law, then the law he shall not have >broken, for the law shall apply to all for whom the law applies. And lo, >he whose law breaketh the law, yea, even it's own law, shall not make the >law, for only a law which doth not break the law shall become the law, though >the law to come shall not be a part of the law. And the law shall be worth >no more than three score. --- This Rule is INVALID and I rate it -1. ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 2 points. Was has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Fri Oct 15 15:27:33 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0onq7v-00000fC; Fri, 15 Oct 93 15:27 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <23597-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:27:28 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <16019-0@alfie.uib.no>; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:26:45 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5183; Fri, 15 Oct 93 15:26:20 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5182; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:26:20 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8133; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:27:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 15:19:59 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: Rounds To: oerjan@nvg.unit.no Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..021:15.09.93.14.26.49"@uib.no> Status: OR Thanks for sending the two Rounds. Round 7 is one I had imagined to be possible! Round 11 is very funny, maybe because I get to see all Rules at once. I wonder if you didn't win because you were the last one to get bored with it? In view of Round 7, I wonder if we don't need an Ordinance like: No Rule is valid if and only if its submitter can proove that it is still possible to submit another Rule. Greetings, Ronald From nvg.unit.no!oerjan Fri Oct 15 19:17:35 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: Received: from tigern.nvg.unit.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ontiY-00000NC; Fri, 15 Oct 93 19:17 MET Received: by tigern.nvg.unit.no (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13733; Fri, 15 Oct 1993 19:17:22 +0100 From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <9310151817.AA13733@tigern.nvg.unit.no> Subject: Re: Rounds To: kunne@crnvma.cern.ch (Ronald Kunne) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 19:17:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: oerjan@nvg.unit.no (Oerjan Johansen) In-Reply-To: <"alfie.uib..021:15.09.93.14.26.49"@uib.no> from "KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet" at Oct 15, 93 03:19:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2208 Status: OR > Thanks for sending the two Rounds. > Round 7 is one I had imagined to be possible! > Round 11 is very funny, maybe because I get to see all Rules at once. > I wonder if you didn't win because you were the last one to get > bored with it? Quite possible. :-) In fact I didn't want to win and hoped that the other guy would send in another rule; unfortunately he was as bored as me :-( > In view of Round 7, I wonder if we don't need an Ordinance like: > > No Rule is valid if and only if its submitter can proove that it > is still possible to submit another Rule. > > Greetings, > Ronald In the original sketch to improve the regular rules, which happened some time ago, there was a rule 11 which attempted to create some such restrictions. However, after a lot of discussion, particularly on the basis of Round 7, it was decided to remove it as it made things too restricted. E.g. round 7 would have been impossible, even before somebody started sending in very short rules. Unfortunately, I've deleted the drafts, but the basic problem was as follows: A rule like the one in round 7 is enacted, which requires further rules to be shorter. Now, however, with your scheme, any rule with length 1 would be illegal, as nothing shorter could be posted. (Ok, maybe a 0 length rule, but that's not a real difference.) But then, rules of length 2 would _also_ be illegal, and length 3,4, etc. up to the length of the original rule. Therefore, the rule that further rules had to be shorter would have to illegal. This seemed a bad restriction at the time, as it would remove an interesting type of rules from the game. I made an attempt to get a rule to circumvent this (being a mathematician and all,) about as follows: For any rule there is a maximum amount N of further rules that can be posted after it. It may be infinite. No rule is allowed that would reduce this N below 50 and by more than 3. This would make a rule like the above possible. Unfortunately, it is also pretty difficult to decide whether a rule fulfils this. So it was decided to drop it all together. All in all I think the important thing is not to have rules which makes interesting fantasy rules impossible. Greetings, Oerjan. From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Mon Oct 18 12:38:43 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0oosvB-00000fC; Mon, 18 Oct 93 12:38 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <12941-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:38:37 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <25938-0@alfie.uib.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:37:50 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5983; Mon, 18 Oct 93 12:37:21 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5982; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:37:21 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0145; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:38:10 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 12:37:36 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Reminder To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..940:18.09.93.11.38.03"@uib.no> Status: OR Really shocked this morning: no new rule submissions in my mailbox... I remind all non-Norwegians that in less than 28 hours all players who haven't submitted valid rules by then, will become illegible. ==== Alyxx writes: >While I do enjoy reading the submissions, I must step down from this round of >play, since I have been so busy I don't have time to come up with a decent >entry. (I actually came to this conclusion last thursday, and am just now >having a chance to write). Please continue to forward stuff to me to read! >I will probably be human again by round 14....I hope. >Thanks very much! Even Lady Palindrome herself steps down.... ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Tue, 19 Oct 1993 18:32:26 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 2 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From nvg.unit.no!oerjan Mon Oct 18 15:28:40 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: Received: from tigern.nvg.unit.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0oovZf-00000WC; Mon, 18 Oct 93 15:28 MET Received: by tigern.nvg.unit.no (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA21792; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:28:29 +0100 From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no Message-Id: <9310181428.AA21792@tigern.nvg.unit.no> Subject: FR: New rule To: kunne@crnvma.cern.ch (Ronald Kunne) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:28:26 +0100 (MET) Cc: oerjan@nvg.unit.no (Oerjan Johansen) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 454 Status: OR New rule: ==== Dear Readers! All Asians are superb cooks, and we are therefore delighted to present today's dish: Singapore Spice Casserolle, to be served in all future rules. Take a spice of your liking, and a long extinct animal (Mammoth is sold by all butchers in Singapore.) Steam boil for 5 hours. Add vegetables (These should not boil too long. 45 minutes max.) Whatever you do, don't forget any ingredients. Serve hot. ==== Greetings, Oerjan. From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Mon Oct 18 17:41:21 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ooxe4-00000jC; Mon, 18 Oct 93 17:41 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <23048-2@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 17:15:07 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <02370-0@alfie.uib.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 17:14:51 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8140; Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:21:10 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8139; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:21:09 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5960; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:02:43 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:02:31 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..386:18.09.93.16.15.05"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:6 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:32:10) ==> INVALID From: "Wes Contreras" >For lo and behold, if he breaketh the law, then the law he shall not have >broken, for the law shall apply to all for whom the law applies. And lo, >he whose law breaketh the law, yea, even it's own law, shall not make the >law, for only a law which doth not break the law shall become the law, though >the law to come shall not be a part of the law. And the law shall be worth >no more than three score. --- This Rule is INVALID and I rate it -1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:7 (Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:29:10) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >Dear Readers! All Asians are superb cooks, >and we are therefore delighted to present today's dish: >Singapore Spice Casserolle, to be served in all future rules. > >Take a spice of your liking, >and a long extinct animal >(Mammoth is sold by all butchers in Singapore.) >Steam boil for 5 hours. Add vegetables >(These should not boil too long. 45 minutes max.) >Whatever you do, don't forget any ingredients. >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:29:10 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 3 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Mon Oct 18 17:41:24 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ooxe3-00000bC; Mon, 18 Oct 93 17:41 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <23048-1@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 17:15:06 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <02368-0@alfie.uib.no>; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 17:14:48 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8137; Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:20:56 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 8136; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:20:55 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5938; Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:02:18 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:02:07 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 13:7 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..382:18.09.93.16.15.02"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains Rule 13:7. 24 hours to go to the big cut-off ==== FANTASY RULE 13:7 (Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:29:10) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >Dear Readers! All Asians are superb cooks, >and we are therefore delighted to present today's dish: >Singapore Spice Casserolle, to be served in all future rules. > >Take a spice of your liking, >and a long extinct animal >(Mammoth is sold by all butchers in Singapore.) >Steam boil for 5 hours. Add vegetables >(These should not boil too long. 45 minutes max.) >Whatever you do, don't forget any ingredients. >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. All necessary ingredients are included. I still rate the rule at one: it has new restrictions but uses only trivial palindromes (Unless I missed any.) ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:29:10 All other players are eligible until Tue 19 Oct 1993 16:00:00 (GMT+1). Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 3 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Tue Oct 19 17:09:15 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0opJcY-00000NC; Tue, 19 Oct 93 17:09 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <14716-3@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Tue, 19 Oct 1993 17:08:53 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <00545-0@alfie.uib.no>; Tue, 19 Oct 1993 17:08:34 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6331; Tue, 19 Oct 93 16:22:50 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6329; Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:22:50 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4145; Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:23:42 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 16:23:07 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: The big cut-off To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..562:19.09.93.16.08.44"@uib.no> Status: OR 16:00 in my time-zone (GMT+1) came and went. It means that only two players are still eligible to submit Rules.... We will play now a sudden-death Norwegian final! Don't let this give you any ideas: I will invalidate everything I don't understand :-) Which leaves still quite a few languages.... ==== Stein is eligible until Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:09:24 Oerjan is eligible until Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:29:10 All other players are no longer eligible. Stein has 3 points. Oerjan has 3 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Wed Oct 20 13:58:16 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0opd7G-00000NC; Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:58 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <24263-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:58:06 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <22283-0@alfie.uib.no>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:57:38 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3011; Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:57:04 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3010; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:57:04 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6554; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:57:58 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:56:48 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Rule 13:8 To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..286:20.09.93.12.57.41"@uib.no> Status: OR This message contains one new Fantasy Rule. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:8 (Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:05:07) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Men in Hanoi now do potato pod w/onion (ah, [nine*'m']!) > A dodo got th'cayenne yacht to go "do-da" > Arab Allah say: Now on, ya shall a-bar "a" --- This Rule is VALID and I rate it at 2. All requirements on my list are in the Rule. I give two points because you made me review what I had listed as your signature style. I had it interpreted sofar as: Stein's Rules *as a whole* should be a palindrome. But now I have had that opinion changed.... The other reason was that one may dig *two* new restrictions out of this Rule. Surprised, Stein? No wonder, as the author himself remarks: > (it's hard to be accurate writing palindromes) ==== Stein is eligible until Wed, 27 Oct 1993 13:05:07 Oerjan is eligible until Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:29:10 All other players are no longer eligible. Stein has 5 points. Oerjan has 3 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Wed Oct 20 13:59:33 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0opd8V-00000NC; Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:59 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <24305-0@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:59:27 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <22294-0@alfie.uib.no>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:58:14 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3015; Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:57:41 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 3014; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:57:41 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6572; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:58:31 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 93 13:58:15 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: Current Rules To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..296:20.09.93.12.58.20"@uib.no> Status: OR List of Fantasy Rules: ==== FANTASY RULE 13:1 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:00:00) ==> VALID From: alyxx@NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (A. Feltser) >Otto says "The measure of worth of each rule shall be, not inches or yards, >but WORDS, you see? Each rule here on shall a palindrome contain...a word >or a phrase read forward or back the same meaning retain. Further each >player needs signature style, mine is weak poetry, mile upon mile. --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 0. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:2 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:02:10) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > ...decides palindrome edge: 'i' no OK pal, slap 'KO' on 'i'! > (eg. deem ordn. 'i' lapsed - iced!) --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:3 (Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:32:26) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >To make a future rule, you must take: > >A blanket statement >3 cups of letters >Assorted grammar >1 complete untruth > >Carefully add sweet buttery talk to your taste, >some talent and maybe chocolate. >Send the product to our judge for approval; >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 2. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:4 (Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:48:58) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Palindromic Nature > by Not, Are > > Which structures are palindromes' constructing units? > Line or word? Letter? Sentence? True, not all blanket > statements blanket all. Not true sentence: Letter, > word or line units constructing palindromes are > structures which are not by nature palindromic. > --- This rule is VALID and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:5 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 17:09:24) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Hail, everybody! As red is no color, erotogenic fora prefer par of > cine: "Go, torero" (Lo, Consider! Say! Do!) by Rev. Eliah --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:6 (Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:32:10) ==> INVALID From: "Wes Contreras" >For lo and behold, if he breaketh the law, then the law he shall not have >broken, for the law shall apply to all for whom the law applies. And lo, >he whose law breaketh the law, yea, even it's own law, shall not make the >law, for only a law which doth not break the law shall become the law, though >the law to come shall not be a part of the law. And the law shall be worth >no more than three score. --- This Rule is INVALID and I rate it -1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:7 (Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:29:10) ==> VALID From: oerjan@nvg.unit.no >Dear Readers! All Asians are superb cooks, >and we are therefore delighted to present today's dish: >Singapore Spice Casserolle, to be served in all future rules. > >Take a spice of your liking, >and a long extinct animal >(Mammoth is sold by all butchers in Singapore.) >Steam boil for 5 hours. Add vegetables >(These should not boil too long. 45 minutes max.) >Whatever you do, don't forget any ingredients. >Serve hot. --- The rule is valid and I rate it at 1. ==== FANTASY RULE 13:8 (Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:05:07) ==> VALID From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.tele.no > Men in Hanoi now do potato pod w/onion (ah, [nine*'m']!) > A dodo got th'cayenne yacht to go "do-da" > Arab Allah say: Now on, ya shall a-bar "a" --- This Rule is VALID and I rate it at 2. ==== Stein is eligible until Wed, 27 Oct 1993 13:05:07 Oerjan is eligible until Mon, 25 Oct 1993 15:29:10 All other players are no longer eligible. Stein has 5 points. Oerjan has 3 points. Wes has -1 points. All other players have 0 points. Ronald From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Mon Oct 25 17:30:04 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0orUny-00000fC; Mon, 25 Oct 93 17:30 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <09187-3@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Mon, 25 Oct 1993 17:07:49 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <12603-0@alfie.uib.no>; Mon, 25 Oct 1993 17:07:36 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4141; Mon, 25 Oct 93 16:25:47 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4140; Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:25:46 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 5953; Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:26:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 16:26:29 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: And the winner is.... To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..614:25.09.93.16.07.42"@uib.no> Status: OR Oerjan failed to post a Fantasy Rule before 15:29 today, which means that he is no longer eligible. It also means that we have a new Judge and a new Wizard: Stein.Kulseth@nta.no My congratulations! I will continue to relay messages (if necessary) until the new Judge takes over. Greetings, the ex-Wizard From cernvm.bitnet!CERNVM.CERN.CH!KUNNE Fri Oct 29 13:23:03 1993 remote from swix Return-Path: <@cernvm.bitnet:KUNNE@CERNVM.CERN.CH> Received: from runix.runit.sintef.no by swix.nvg.unit.no with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ossr7-00000mC; Fri, 29 Oct 93 13:23 MET Received: from alfie.uib.no by runix.runit.sintef.no with SMTP (PP) id <09096-1@runix.runit.sintef.no>; Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:22:52 +0100 Received: from livid.uib.no by alfie.uib.no with SMTP (PP) id <00704-0@alfie.uib.no>; Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:22:01 +0100 Received: from NOBERGEN.UIB.NO by lilje.uib.no (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6640; Fri, 29 Oct 93 13:20:24 EMT Received: from CERNVM.CERN.CH (NJE origin MAILER@CERNVM) by NOBERGEN.UIB.NO (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 6639; Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:20:19 +0100 Received: from CERNVM.cern.ch (NJE origin KUNNE@CERNVM) by CERNVM.CERN.CH (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 0960; Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:21:26 +0100 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 13:21:15 SET From: KUNNE@cernvm.bitnet Subject: FR: message from Stein To: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil, dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu, ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu, oerjan@nvg.unit.no, panditvx@ntmtv.com, rchatham@math.utk.edu, rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu, spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu, stein.kulseth@nta.no, thedward@wixer.bga.com, thomson@netcom.com, wesc@ichips.intel.com Message-ID: <"alfie.uib..784:29.09.93.12.22.22"@uib.no> Status: OR Stein writes: > > Now, I won? > > Well, once again I am absent when winning a round. I've been away all this > week on account of my son being taken ill. I hope to be back sometime next > week to start the new round, but I cannot say exactly when. The proposed > theme, however, will be: "Who killed the judge?". > >Could you relay this to all members, Ronald, and also send me >an updated address list (I haven't got Wes' address, and also someone >(jrk?) signed off during the round) So Stein won, while away, because Oerjan was away as well..... This is the list of the Current Members: alyxx@nadc.navy.mil dnicol@vax1.umkc.edu ecrocke@phoenix.Princeton.EDU kunne@cernvm.cern.ch mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu oerjan@nvg.unit.no panditvx@ntmtv.com rchatham@math.utk.edu rlinnema@jarthur.claremont.edu spcabg1@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu stein.kulseth@nta.no thedward@wixer.bga.com thomson@netcom.com wesc@ichips.intel.com To get fresh blood and ideas, maybe you could post a message to rec.games.abstract if you have access? (I haven't write access.) All the best with your son. Ronald